New Delhi8 January 2009
About 650 Palestinians have died since Israel launched an offensive on December 27, 2008 ostensibly to silence Hamas' rocket salvoes. According to United Nations figures, more than a quarter of the Palestinian dead are civilians. This newspaper caught up with the ambassadors of Israel and Palestine to seek their comments on the situation obtaining in Gaza today. Here is what they had to say:
* * * * * * *
Israel tried everything, including applying political pressure through its friends and neighbours to try and stop the constant barrage of rockets into Israel, but there comes a time when enough is enough, Israeli Ambassador to India Mark Sofer told RAMESH RAMACHANDRAN in a recent interview. "There comes a time when clearly the attempt at trying to stop the terror by peaceful means don't work and this time it arrived when the Hamas refused and rejected utterly the renewal of the truce," he said. Mr Sofer also said Israel will not go back to status quo ante in which it will have a section of its population living under constant threat of killing. Excerpts:
How does Israel view the November 26, 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai and who do you think were behind it?
The Indian authorities have been clear and open about who was behind the attacks and we have absolutely no reason whatever to place even an iota of doubt on that, where it was coming from, which organisation was behind it and why. So in that I think Israel is one of the few countries of the world that is unambiguously and completely behind India in its struggle against this terrorist organisation which the atrocity of Mumbai was something that the mind almost cannot encompass. The group is Lashkar-e-Tayyiba. Why did they do it? Basically this is clear extremist world jihadist attempt to wreak havoc. The slaughter of innocent civilians which is what we saw in Mumbai just recently is pure utter unadulterated terrorism. There is no two ways about that and Israel as you know gives no truck whatsoever to terrorists. We believe that the civilised international community, the moderate community which is looking for peace and harmony around the world, must not ever give in to this type of extremist terrorism.
There were reports in the Israeli media questioning the manner in which India dealt with the Mumbai attacks. It was almost as if Israel took it personally ...
Well in the first place we don't take it so personally. We actually do see it as a terrorist incident and a terrorist atrocity perpetrated first and foremost against India. India was defiled. But let us also not forget that in this atrocity not only Indians were targeted but Jews and Israelis as well. Those were the only two specific groups that were targeted. So clearly we had a more indepth interest in what was going on. I think you cannot divorce world jihadi murder, one organisation from another so easily. They draw at the very least their inspiration from others and the hate towards the West, the hate towards India, the hate towards Israel, the hate towards the Jews is all part and parcel of the same package. It could be Al Qaeda, it could be Hamas, it could be Lashkar- e-Tayyiba, all of these organisations which are attacking everywhere around the worldare a danger and a threat to us all and I must stress that this is not Islam, this is not the Muslim way of thinking, this is an abuse and a misuse and a disgrace to Islam, which is a religion of peace and harmony. Now as far as the Indian authorities handled the situation and are handling it since then, I will say the following: The security forces of India were nothing less than heroic. And Isay that in the most unambiguous sense possible. They put their lives on the line to save innocent people who were being slaughtered by terrorists, they worked under the most difficult circumstances, in alleyways, in hotels. The Jewish Nariman House is in a very small quarter of Mumbai. The intense difficulty of handling all of this at once is immense and we have nothing butthe greatest regard and the greatest respect for the way that the security forces handled the incident. We have said this in official letters also to the leadership of the Indian Government. I think that India is faced with the choices which as a responsible government it has to take. How do you, how does a country defend its citizens? This is the choice, this is the situation that we find ourselves in these very days in Gaza .... I wouldn't even dream to enter into that type of parallel but democracies do have a problem in dealing with these extremist thugs. They do have a problem because on the one hand you are dedicated to human rights, to freedoms, which they are not. They are dedicated to indiscriminate killing and murder and so already your hands are basically to a certain extent tied behind your back. You cannot just do what they are doing, just go and indiscriminately slaughter that must never be done. Second of all, having said that, democracies everywhere are subject to public opinion, that's what it is. No country, democracyspecially, can ignore that because they are answerable to the public. That is the nature of democracy. And therefore the response is that much more difficult. However, the mostimportant thing to remember always is that the number one priority of any democraticgovernment is the security of its citizens. It's the number one priority. The Indian authorities know that. The Israeli authorities know that. The Western authorities know that. And I think that this is really something which has to be uppermost in all our minds as we move forward to tackle this scourge of international jihadist terror.
Well in the first place we don't take it so personally. We actually do see it as a terrorist incident and a terrorist atrocity perpetrated first and foremost against India. India was defiled. But let us also not forget that in this atrocity not only Indians were targeted but Jews and Israelis as well. Those were the only two specific groups that were targeted. So clearly we had a more indepth interest in what was going on. I think you cannot divorce world jihadi murder, one organisation from another so easily. They draw at the very least their inspiration from others and the hate towards the West, the hate towards India, the hate towards Israel, the hate towards the Jews is all part and parcel of the same package. It could be Al Qaeda, it could be Hamas, it could be Lashkar- e-Tayyiba, all of these organisations which are attacking everywhere around the worldare a danger and a threat to us all and I must stress that this is not Islam, this is not the Muslim way of thinking, this is an abuse and a misuse and a disgrace to Islam, which is a religion of peace and harmony. Now as far as the Indian authorities handled the situation and are handling it since then, I will say the following: The security forces of India were nothing less than heroic. And Isay that in the most unambiguous sense possible. They put their lives on the line to save innocent people who were being slaughtered by terrorists, they worked under the most difficult circumstances, in alleyways, in hotels. The Jewish Nariman House is in a very small quarter of Mumbai. The intense difficulty of handling all of this at once is immense and we have nothing butthe greatest regard and the greatest respect for the way that the security forces handled the incident. We have said this in official letters also to the leadership of the Indian Government. I think that India is faced with the choices which as a responsible government it has to take. How do you, how does a country defend its citizens? This is the choice, this is the situation that we find ourselves in these very days in Gaza .... I wouldn't even dream to enter into that type of parallel but democracies do have a problem in dealing with these extremist thugs. They do have a problem because on the one hand you are dedicated to human rights, to freedoms, which they are not. They are dedicated to indiscriminate killing and murder and so already your hands are basically to a certain extent tied behind your back. You cannot just do what they are doing, just go and indiscriminately slaughter that must never be done. Second of all, having said that, democracies everywhere are subject to public opinion, that's what it is. No country, democracyspecially, can ignore that because they are answerable to the public. That is the nature of democracy. And therefore the response is that much more difficult. However, the mostimportant thing to remember always is that the number one priority of any democraticgovernment is the security of its citizens. It's the number one priority. The Indian authorities know that. The Israeli authorities know that. The Western authorities know that. And I think that this is really something which has to be uppermost in all our minds as we move forward to tackle this scourge of international jihadist terror.
Would you shed some light on the level of engagement and cooperation between India and Israel post-26/11?
We don't discuss under any circumstances these issues in the public domain and that is not say that we have and it is not to say that we haven't. It's just to say that we would never discuss these issues. They are left outside.
We don't discuss under any circumstances these issues in the public domain and that is not say that we have and it is not to say that we haven't. It's just to say that we would never discuss these issues. They are left outside.
Some commentators here have suggested that India, perhaps like Israel, should go after terrorist camps operating across borders. Also, how does Israel view the spectre of a conflict between India and Pakistan?
Well as far as the first part of the question is concerned I must say that no two situationsanywhere in the world are identical. They may have identical parts to it or components to it but they are not identical in practice. And clearly the Indian authorities are taking the decisions which are in the best interests of India and we will do what is in the best interests of Israel. That is what responsible governments must do and I think it would be and it is wrong for one government to condescendingly and patronisingly advice another what needs to be done if we are talking about democratic societies. As far as conflagration in the area is concerned, I will say that India knows exactly what the situation is. It knows excatly what the outcome of any scenario might be and nobody wants anywhere warfare, conflict. On the other hand how do you how does one juggle that with the need to protect citizend against another further outrage of the type we saw in Mumbai or what we are seeing in Gaza right now? The equation needs to be changed period. You cannot be subject day in and day out, no country can be subject day in andday out to the threat and the fear of terror. That is the number one priority as I said earlier also of any responsbile government is to protect its citizens. That is number one on the list. Everything else is lower down the list.
Well as far as the first part of the question is concerned I must say that no two situationsanywhere in the world are identical. They may have identical parts to it or components to it but they are not identical in practice. And clearly the Indian authorities are taking the decisions which are in the best interests of India and we will do what is in the best interests of Israel. That is what responsible governments must do and I think it would be and it is wrong for one government to condescendingly and patronisingly advice another what needs to be done if we are talking about democratic societies. As far as conflagration in the area is concerned, I will say that India knows exactly what the situation is. It knows excatly what the outcome of any scenario might be and nobody wants anywhere warfare, conflict. On the other hand how do you how does one juggle that with the need to protect citizend against another further outrage of the type we saw in Mumbai or what we are seeing in Gaza right now? The equation needs to be changed period. You cannot be subject day in and day out, no country can be subject day in andday out to the threat and the fear of terror. That is the number one priority as I said earlier also of any responsbile government is to protect its citizens. That is number one on the list. Everything else is lower down the list.
India and the international community have criticised Israel for its actions in Gaza. Can there be an end to the killings?
First of all it is important to remember that India did not come out with two statementscondemning .... They came out with two statements, one was a balanced approach and the other one was little bit more nuanced but as a matter of fact the international approach has been very muted, in many respects very supportive of Israel and I think that the international community understands that in the struggle against terror and in the need to change the equations, that cannot be done by pure negotiations. I wish it could. Israel had tried everything, we agreed to the Egyptian brokered truce which was manifestly broken day in and day out by the Hamas. Israel had tried political pressure through its friends and through its neighbours to try and stop the constant barrage of rockets into Israel. Thousands alone were fired at Israeli citizens and civilians in 2008 and we did nothing. We tried everything we could but there comes a time when enough is enough. There comes a time when clearly the attempt at trying to stop the terror bypeaceful means don't work and this time it arrived when the Hamas refused and rejected utterly the renewal of the truce. In one day alone 87 rockets were fired on Israeli ... all of them at Israeli civilians, not one at anything but civilians. You know we have 2,50,000 people in Israel who must not be more than 15 seconds away from a bomb shelter. Which country can live under such circumstances? And certainly we will not do that. No country would do that. And we tried everything, the restraint failed. Now we have three things which are uppermost in our minds.Number one, the complete change of the equation. That whatever happens now we will not go back to status quo ante in which we will have about 20 per cent or so of our population under constant threat of murder by a fanatic, racist killer organisation of the type that you have in Lashkar-e-Tayyiba. It's exactly the same. Supported by Iran in our case. Second of all, we will not allow under any circumstances a humanitarian crisis to develop in Gaza. This is crucial. This is not and I repeat not a struggle against the Palestinian people. The opposite is the case. We want to have peace with the Palestinians we have agreed on the contours of peace but we will not accept this type of terror. And third of all, we must and we are minimising and reducing civilian casualties to the absolute maximum. And by saying that I think if you look at the pure international facts and figures that almost 90 per cent perhaps more than 90 per cent of those that have been targeted or that have suffered are Hamas operatives, Hamas terrorists, Hamaskillers, Hamas infrastructure. They have declared war and they must bear the consequences.They actually are the ones who are responsible entirely. It isn't only Israel saying this. This is being said by Arab leaders as well. The Palestinian President himself, the Egyptian President himself, have been open in saying that the Hamas brought it on themselves. What did they expect? That we would sit quietly by and continue just to be bombared by shells continuously until Kingdom come? We won't do that and no civilised country will do that. We have a duty to defend our people. I do believe that the only way to fight terrorism is unambiguous strong and resolve, resolve is the order of the day. Once we start buckling under, once we start finding oneway or another to let it carry on in one form or another, we are all doomed. And this isn't just Israel. We do want to bring about an end to this immediately as quickly as we can on thecondition that we will not return to status quo ante. In other words, a complete and uttercessation of the bombs, rockets and mortar shells being fired on innocent Israelis; a complete and utter cessation of the constant smuggling of weaponry by the Hamas into Gaza in order just to rearm itself for a new confrontation somewhere down the line. We are not interested in as somebody said once, kicking the can down the street. This is to throw the can into the waste paper bin. This is what we are doing right now and nothing less than that must be achieved right now. It must be at least that. We're not interested in toppling governments, we're not interested in war and conflict, we didn't leave Gaza in order to renew violence. The opposite was the case. But when you are faced with death and slaughter, you have to defend yourself.
* * * * * * *
What is going on in Gaza Strip is a massacre by the Israeli occupiers, PalestinianAmbassador to India Osama Musa told RAMESH RAMACHANDRAN in an interview recently. There can be no justification for killing civilians, he said, adding that Israel's political and military leaders were war criminals and they should be tried in the International Criminal Court. Excerpts:
What are you hearing about the situation in Gaza?
What is going on in Gaza Strip is a massacre by the Israeli occupiers. This is not the first massacre of the Palestinians and this will not be the last. We have noticed with full evidence that the majority of the casualties of the Palestinians are civilians: women, children, families, all killed while they are sleeping or while they are hiding inside their houses. Over 1.5 million Palestinians live under the threat of being killed any minute. No one is safe. The Israelis are not attacking Hamas, they are attacking the civilians of Palestine. Israelis are using United States-make aircraft such as Apache and F-16 and ammunition and they are testing their modern ammunition on our bodies. Israelis are war criminals because they are killing civilians. They are terrorists. The State of Israel is the state of terrorists. It is a member of United Nations, Hamas is not a member of UN. Israel must stop this massacre and we accuse the political and military leaders of Israel of being war criminals. They have to be tried in the International Criminal Court as war criminals. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a war criminal, Defence Minister Ehud Barak isa war criminal, Lieutenant General Gabi Ashkenazi, chief of staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, is a war criminal. The evidence is there. We cannot fabricate phoptographs of children's bodies. Israel says it is not targeting civilians but who killed the civilians if they are not targeting civilians? We ask the international commnunity to condemn Israel as the state of terror. Nobody can avoid it. Even the US tried their best to avoid it but the evidence is there on the ground. The people in Gaza have no place to run. Usually in war, civilians move to safer places but Gazans have no place to move. I have my son there, I have my family there, I have many friends there. They said they don't know when they would die. Palestinians have neither passive nor active defence. Active defence such as anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft to intercept Israeli aircraft, artillery to attack. Or passive defence such as shelters to hide. There is no food, no electricity, no water because Gaza is under siege for a long time. There are not enough hospitals to look after the people. Sometimes civilians might be killed by mistake but not so many of them and yet the Israelis are continuing to target civilians. Maybe Hamas lost five or 10 or 15 of its men but hundreds of civilians have perished.
What are you hearing about the situation in Gaza?
What is going on in Gaza Strip is a massacre by the Israeli occupiers. This is not the first massacre of the Palestinians and this will not be the last. We have noticed with full evidence that the majority of the casualties of the Palestinians are civilians: women, children, families, all killed while they are sleeping or while they are hiding inside their houses. Over 1.5 million Palestinians live under the threat of being killed any minute. No one is safe. The Israelis are not attacking Hamas, they are attacking the civilians of Palestine. Israelis are using United States-make aircraft such as Apache and F-16 and ammunition and they are testing their modern ammunition on our bodies. Israelis are war criminals because they are killing civilians. They are terrorists. The State of Israel is the state of terrorists. It is a member of United Nations, Hamas is not a member of UN. Israel must stop this massacre and we accuse the political and military leaders of Israel of being war criminals. They have to be tried in the International Criminal Court as war criminals. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a war criminal, Defence Minister Ehud Barak isa war criminal, Lieutenant General Gabi Ashkenazi, chief of staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, is a war criminal. The evidence is there. We cannot fabricate phoptographs of children's bodies. Israel says it is not targeting civilians but who killed the civilians if they are not targeting civilians? We ask the international commnunity to condemn Israel as the state of terror. Nobody can avoid it. Even the US tried their best to avoid it but the evidence is there on the ground. The people in Gaza have no place to run. Usually in war, civilians move to safer places but Gazans have no place to move. I have my son there, I have my family there, I have many friends there. They said they don't know when they would die. Palestinians have neither passive nor active defence. Active defence such as anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft to intercept Israeli aircraft, artillery to attack. Or passive defence such as shelters to hide. There is no food, no electricity, no water because Gaza is under siege for a long time. There are not enough hospitals to look after the people. Sometimes civilians might be killed by mistake but not so many of them and yet the Israelis are continuing to target civilians. Maybe Hamas lost five or 10 or 15 of its men but hundreds of civilians have perished.
But Israel accuses Hamas of breaking the ceasefire.
A: Suppose Hamas sent rockets, I ask the Israelis how many did they kill? This Hamas rocket is a handmade rocket, not a Tomahawk cruise missile. It's a carton, pipe, it makes a sound to scare the Israelis but the israeli response has been to destroy the infrastructure of Gaza, to kill civilians. It is not a normal response. They want to cover their actions by accusing Hamas of sending rockets. Suppose Hamas sends rockets, but the Israelis have no right to kill civilians. There can be no justification for killing civilians. The world considers Hamas as a terror group because they send rockets to Israel and try to kill civilians. OK, they are a terror group but what about a State that is killing civilians, a State that is a member of UN? The Israeli army purposely, continuously kills Palestinian civilians, so they are a State of terror. Will the worldacknowledge this much? That is the point.
A: Suppose Hamas sent rockets, I ask the Israelis how many did they kill? This Hamas rocket is a handmade rocket, not a Tomahawk cruise missile. It's a carton, pipe, it makes a sound to scare the Israelis but the israeli response has been to destroy the infrastructure of Gaza, to kill civilians. It is not a normal response. They want to cover their actions by accusing Hamas of sending rockets. Suppose Hamas sends rockets, but the Israelis have no right to kill civilians. There can be no justification for killing civilians. The world considers Hamas as a terror group because they send rockets to Israel and try to kill civilians. OK, they are a terror group but what about a State that is killing civilians, a State that is a member of UN? The Israeli army purposely, continuously kills Palestinian civilians, so they are a State of terror. Will the worldacknowledge this much? That is the point.
Some say the attacks in Gaza have at a time when the US is in a transition. Obama is waiting to take over from Bush and perhaps the Israelis wanted to change the situation on the ground.
I don't believe in that because this is not the first massacre. Always they find some excuse to kill us. It is not the first and it will not be the last. But this time they are putting huge force to kill more Palestinians for the internal election of Israel, which means the leader of Israel who kills more Palestinians will become prime minister of Israel. So they are war criminals and you cannot equate Hamas action with Israeli response.
India issued two statements expressing solidarity with the people of Palestine. India has offered humanitarian aid, too. Are you satisfied with what India has said and done so far?
Yes, India has stood beside us for a long time because India believes in justice. India is not with me against Israel or with Israel against me jyst because they like this or that. India wants to stand with a just cause and to help people who are under occupation and their struggle for human rights. Since Mahatma Gandhi, India has stood with us and till today, India has stood beside us. We are very proud of India. We are not alone. The people of India believe in our just cause so any government will stand with the just Palestinian cause.
How do you view the reaction by the international community including the US?
From my experience, the only decision maker on this planet is the US. Even the UN cannot meet without their permission. In the UN Security Council no resolution can come out without Americans agreeing to it. So the key is in the hands of the US. The US can stop Israeli action in one minute or one second: They can ask us Israelis why they are using our aircraft and ammunition to kill civilians? Because according to the US Constitution, if they give or sell arms to any country, they put a condition that it should not be used against civilians. So we are dying because of American-make tanks and aircraft andf ammunition. So at least American has to tell according to its rules, not for my sake, that don't use my ammunition, aircraft to kill civilians but they never said that. So when we tried our best in UN Security Council for a ceasefire the US refused, they rejected. It reminds me of the war in south Lebanon when they tried to cease fire, the US rejected; it did not come about till till US decided on ceasefire. So all the decisions are inthe hands of the US. Israeli cannot do this against the will of America. The US is also a partner of Israel in killing us. We blame Bush for being a war criminal, just like Olmert. The new US ammunition is tested on our bodies. So we hope the US will get a little wiser and think about human rights and not to let this aggression continue. Most of the international community wants this aggression to stop but only the Americans have refused.
What is the Arab world doing to bring about a ceasefire and improve the situation?
There is no balance or comparison between the power of Israel and the power of Palestinians. So this attack comes from only one side. The weak one agrees immediately for ceasefire because he is weak but the strong one says later, maybe tomorrow, so the Israelis are refusing. All Arab leaders and our President went to UN Security Council to ask them and request them to agree to a ceasfire. Who is the loser here? Even as we talk tens of Palestinians are being killed, after 10 minutes another 10 will be killed. So we are the ones seeking a ceasefire.
Are you disappointed that the Egypt-crokered truce failed to hold?
All Arab countries are doing their best to improve the situation. We are not alone; we are alone in fighting but we are not alone when it comes to humanitarian aid. It comes to us from all the Arab cuntries and you see the demonstrations everywhere. If we are wrong, why demonstrations everywhere on this planet? It is the sign of who is guilty. Ask the French people who demonstrate on the streets, ask the Indians who demonstrate on the streets, ask in Spain, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Yemen ... demonstrations by millions of people ... and they cry for the Palestinians. The Arabs support us as much as they can.
Are Fatah and Hamas remaining engaged?
That is not the point. Now the point is stop the killing of Palestinians. Everywhere in the world there is some friction between parties. Today we are angry with them, tomorrow we are brothers together. It is not the problem; the media concentrates on it but it is not the problem. The problem is Israel, problem is the occupiers and the killings. Our President and we all advised them (Hamas) but we have no control over parties because we are not a State. If we are a State we can control by force but we are under Israeli occupation. We cannot control anyone by force while Israelis are killing us. If we are a free independent country we can control everybodt. If we say nobody will shoot one brick, nobody will shoot one brick. But our situation is not like that today. Our President cannot travel without permission of Israel. We are not an independent state. We are under occupation. When we will be free we can control. President used to advise Hamas, please don't send these hand-made rockets to give Israel an excuse to kill civilians. ButHamas did not lose more than 10 or 20 of its people. All the losses were from the civilians. Who suffers today? Civilians. Who has no food? Civilians. All because of occupation. We can't blame Hamas, we can't Fatah, we only request for an end to the occupation and 1967 borders, that West Bank and Gaza Strip to be free from occupation. Israel says it is not occupying West Bank but I cannot go to West Bank because I need Israel's permission and Israel refuses to give me permission. I cannot go to my home without their permission. Israel says it left Gaza but if they left Gaza why can't Gazans travel? Why can't Gazans make a sea port and an airport? Why can't we move? Why can't we import and export? Students can't go to universities without Israel's permission. And Israel has closed the borders and nobody can go out. Even in West Bank peoplewant to travel and they want to cross Israeli check points but they are not allowed. The only solution for all this is that Israel has to end the Occupation.
Are you hopeful of any immediate solution?
I don't have any hope for an immediate solution but I hope these killings stop. George Bush, in his last days in office, has committed another massacre. Olmert is an agent of Bush, Bush is his master. Bush is the killer of Palestinians because if he did not want this to happen, this would have never happened. We ask for ceasefire, but the US refuses. Bush wants to end his presidency with a big black spot in history. This is what is going on.
I don't have any hope for an immediate solution but I hope these killings stop. George Bush, in his last days in office, has committed another massacre. Olmert is an agent of Bush, Bush is his master. Bush is the killer of Palestinians because if he did not want this to happen, this would have never happened. We ask for ceasefire, but the US refuses. Bush wants to end his presidency with a big black spot in history. This is what is going on.
No comments:
Post a Comment