Marina Mahathir
social activist and daughter of former Malaysia prime minister Mahathir Mohamad
New Delhi
8 March 2010
Marina Mahathir, social activist and daughter of former Malaysia prime minister
Mahathir Mohamad, is a member of an NGO called "Sisters in Islam", which advocates
women's rights within the framework of Islam. She is also a newspaper columnist and
blogger. Recently, Malaysia's largest English-language newspaper, The Star, refused to
publish her column on the caning of three Muslim women. In an exclusive interview to
Ramesh Ramachandran, she says the Qur'an is fair to women but it has been interpreted
selectively. Excerpts:
You are vocal about religion, women's rights and media freedoms. What is the central
theme of your advocacy?
A lot of religious beliefs affect women and what we are trying to say is that surely when
women see these laws or implementation of these laws or sometimes non-enforcement
of laws, we should be able to question it. The trouble is there are people who don't like
this questioning. They think if you are questioning, you are questioning god. Of course
not, we are questioning the implementation. I mean God does not decide on fines, jail
terms, not even for drinking. Drinking alcohol might be discouraged in the Qur'an but it
certainly does not lay out how many strokes you have to be caned. So these people are
taking on these particular interpretations which are not even necessarily the only
interpretations available in the whole body of Islamic jurisprudence scholarship. Those
who disagree with me are unable to come out with solid reasons why people should not
talk about it. All they do is shout. They are just using the strong arm of the law, they are
using fear. Countering religious dogma is always very scary. They are using that to shut
people up. It's really a slippery slope.
Do you see a ground swell of support for your activities?
When you don't have media freedom, your voice becomes a very lonely choice. I find
my support is mainly among non-Muslims who seem to be able to talk unemotionally
about a lot of things. There is a small section of Muslims who are progressive and
support me but a large population unfortunately has been fed this whole thing that you
cannot question anything to do with religion. And therefore they see someone like me as
a real aberration. They don't realise there are so many different interpretations within the
religion itself. We are working within the religion. Our reference is always the Qur'an. But
if you don't know what's in the Qur'an it's so easy for someone else to [mislead] you. A
reporter once asked me on the caning issue that the Qur'an says you have to whip
someone 100 times for drinking, and I said show me. [It] does not exist but they believe
because someone told them; they don't bother to go read the Qur'an. We at Sisters in
Islam are going back to the text to see whether it really is unfair to women ...
... is it unfair?
No, the Qur'an is very fair. It stresses equality, justice, and compassion, but what is fed
to people by religious authorities is very selective and its interpretations are very
selective. For instance, the verses on polygamy talk of marrying two or three or four
[women] but they forget the next line which says that the best is still one. So the best
marriage is between one man and one woman and that's it. That's conveniently put
aside, conveniently forgotten. What we are saying is this: If Shari'ah law calls itself the
best law, then it has to prove that it's the most just system. At Sisters in Islam, we get
calls from young girls who enquire about our stand on religious issues and we tell them
these are all kosher interpretation. It's just that it's being kept from you. It's very hard for
people to accept diverse opinions because they are fed certain things.
What prompted you to take up the cause of Muslim women?
I've been brought up to always tell the truth. So I don't know how to talk in any other way.
I don't know how to be indirect. I think I'm very polite but I don't want to miss the point in
the name of courtesy. I just like to call it the way I see it. I have daughters to think about.
I want them to come and live in my country and I don't want them to have a terrible life.
They need to breathe, they need to able to fulfil their own potential, and they can't do it
with this type of things going on.
How do you view the controversy surrounding the Muslim veil in Europe?
There's nothing about the burqa and the naqab in the Qur'an and I think those are
cultural traditions rather than religious. I don't believe that the Qur'an actually says
anything about that. As far as the hijab is concerned, it is a matter of interpretation. I
personally don't believe that the Qur'an actually interprets or actually says that you
have to cover your head [but] I do believe that if a Muslim woman chooses on her own
accord to wear the hijab then she should be allowed to. It's all about choices. It's all
about making your own choices rather than being forced into it.
How do you approach the idea of secularism? For example, in India, secularism means
you have as much freedom to practise your religion as I do for mine. But not so in
France, which bars religious symbols from public spaces.
I'd prefer the Indian [model] because the whole French thing about the scarf is a very
peculiarly French argument, which a lot of people find very difficult to understand. I've
been at a panel talking about that. Even the Americans don't understand it. Americans
believe in individual choice. But I think it's a very fine line. What's the point of alienating
sections of your society by telling them you can't do something? It's all about dress. And
then they say it's oppressive to women. Why don't they work on the men to be less
oppressive to women rather than having the women penalised? So, yes, it's a
complicated issue in France. But elsewhere I think I like everyone sharing the freedom to
practise their religion the way they want it, but under a secular constitution which
protects the rights of everyone. The non-secular constitution will be problematic
[because] obviously [it will] tend to have one form of religion dominating.
You are the daughter of a former prime minister. Do you intend to join politics?
No. One, I think it's bit late for me. Two, I'm really allergic to party politics. I think of
political parties as a bit like organised religion. You have to abide by the rules or else
you know you're thought of as apostate and I can't do that. I find it very hard to toe the
line and I don't think our system is set up for independence.
Mahathir Mohamad, is a member of an NGO called "Sisters in Islam", which advocates
women's rights within the framework of Islam. She is also a newspaper columnist and
blogger. Recently, Malaysia's largest English-language newspaper, The Star, refused to
publish her column on the caning of three Muslim women. In an exclusive interview to
Ramesh Ramachandran, she says the Qur'an is fair to women but it has been interpreted
selectively. Excerpts:
You are vocal about religion, women's rights and media freedoms. What is the central
theme of your advocacy?
A lot of religious beliefs affect women and what we are trying to say is that surely when
women see these laws or implementation of these laws or sometimes non-enforcement
of laws, we should be able to question it. The trouble is there are people who don't like
this questioning. They think if you are questioning, you are questioning god. Of course
not, we are questioning the implementation. I mean God does not decide on fines, jail
terms, not even for drinking. Drinking alcohol might be discouraged in the Qur'an but it
certainly does not lay out how many strokes you have to be caned. So these people are
taking on these particular interpretations which are not even necessarily the only
interpretations available in the whole body of Islamic jurisprudence scholarship. Those
who disagree with me are unable to come out with solid reasons why people should not
talk about it. All they do is shout. They are just using the strong arm of the law, they are
using fear. Countering religious dogma is always very scary. They are using that to shut
people up. It's really a slippery slope.
Do you see a ground swell of support for your activities?
When you don't have media freedom, your voice becomes a very lonely choice. I find
my support is mainly among non-Muslims who seem to be able to talk unemotionally
about a lot of things. There is a small section of Muslims who are progressive and
support me but a large population unfortunately has been fed this whole thing that you
cannot question anything to do with religion. And therefore they see someone like me as
a real aberration. They don't realise there are so many different interpretations within the
religion itself. We are working within the religion. Our reference is always the Qur'an. But
if you don't know what's in the Qur'an it's so easy for someone else to [mislead] you. A
reporter once asked me on the caning issue that the Qur'an says you have to whip
someone 100 times for drinking, and I said show me. [It] does not exist but they believe
because someone told them; they don't bother to go read the Qur'an. We at Sisters in
Islam are going back to the text to see whether it really is unfair to women ...
... is it unfair?
No, the Qur'an is very fair. It stresses equality, justice, and compassion, but what is fed
to people by religious authorities is very selective and its interpretations are very
selective. For instance, the verses on polygamy talk of marrying two or three or four
[women] but they forget the next line which says that the best is still one. So the best
marriage is between one man and one woman and that's it. That's conveniently put
aside, conveniently forgotten. What we are saying is this: If Shari'ah law calls itself the
best law, then it has to prove that it's the most just system. At Sisters in Islam, we get
calls from young girls who enquire about our stand on religious issues and we tell them
these are all kosher interpretation. It's just that it's being kept from you. It's very hard for
people to accept diverse opinions because they are fed certain things.
What prompted you to take up the cause of Muslim women?
I've been brought up to always tell the truth. So I don't know how to talk in any other way.
I don't know how to be indirect. I think I'm very polite but I don't want to miss the point in
the name of courtesy. I just like to call it the way I see it. I have daughters to think about.
I want them to come and live in my country and I don't want them to have a terrible life.
They need to breathe, they need to able to fulfil their own potential, and they can't do it
with this type of things going on.
How do you view the controversy surrounding the Muslim veil in Europe?
There's nothing about the burqa and the naqab in the Qur'an and I think those are
cultural traditions rather than religious. I don't believe that the Qur'an actually says
anything about that. As far as the hijab is concerned, it is a matter of interpretation. I
personally don't believe that the Qur'an actually interprets or actually says that you
have to cover your head [but] I do believe that if a Muslim woman chooses on her own
accord to wear the hijab then she should be allowed to. It's all about choices. It's all
about making your own choices rather than being forced into it.
How do you approach the idea of secularism? For example, in India, secularism means
you have as much freedom to practise your religion as I do for mine. But not so in
France, which bars religious symbols from public spaces.
I'd prefer the Indian [model] because the whole French thing about the scarf is a very
peculiarly French argument, which a lot of people find very difficult to understand. I've
been at a panel talking about that. Even the Americans don't understand it. Americans
believe in individual choice. But I think it's a very fine line. What's the point of alienating
sections of your society by telling them you can't do something? It's all about dress. And
then they say it's oppressive to women. Why don't they work on the men to be less
oppressive to women rather than having the women penalised? So, yes, it's a
complicated issue in France. But elsewhere I think I like everyone sharing the freedom to
practise their religion the way they want it, but under a secular constitution which
protects the rights of everyone. The non-secular constitution will be problematic
[because] obviously [it will] tend to have one form of religion dominating.
You are the daughter of a former prime minister. Do you intend to join politics?
No. One, I think it's bit late for me. Two, I'm really allergic to party politics. I think of
political parties as a bit like organised religion. You have to abide by the rules or else
you know you're thought of as apostate and I can't do that. I find it very hard to toe the
line and I don't think our system is set up for independence.
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